Sound Recorder and Induction Recording Questions

Mara

Member
I'm hoping someone will be able to offer advice or point me in the right direction. I know my questions will seem silly to most of you, but I'm somewhat new and would like to improve my results and get the best recordings I possibly can.

On my last visit to WDW, I took my digital voice recorder and bought a telephone pickup to attempt some induction recordings. The results were decent in my opinion considering the recorder is a pretty simple device, meaning there aren't many options or settings to tinker with. Also, the highest mp3 rate it is capable of recording is only 192kbps, which leaves something to be desired.

So, before my next trip, I would like to get a new recorder but am unsure exactly what to look for. I've visited several sites that sell them, but it's a little overwhelming not knowing anything about them. Would anybody here mind sharing what recorders you use? Does it take a lot of understanding and practice to get good results?

Here are a few specific questions:

1. If the recorder has the option to record in WAV format, is that the way to go vs. 320kpbs mp3s? Are WAV files able to be converted to mp3s (basically, is WAV format the higher quality of the two?)?

2. I'm under the impression that no matter what type of recorder you use, if you use a telephone pickup to get an induction recording, then the recording will be mono. Is this correct? If so, is there a way to make the recording "stereo"? I've noticed that some of the induction recordings I've downloaded from here seem to be stereo recordings - is this just the same file being copied to the right channel? If so, how would I be able to do that?

3. With my current voice recorder, when I make an induction recording, I don't really have any options to play with. I've seen "setting the levels" discussed on other posts here and also on reviews of more expensive recorders. What does that mean, how is it done, and is it difficult to get the levels right?

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.
 
I'm going to use some audiophile jargon since I'm bit pressed for time.  If you don't understand something I wrote, please ask for clarification.

1.  320 kbps MP3 files sound pretty darn good but they use lossy compression which means there is still some loss of sound quality compared to the original source.  That's because lossy compression means you're permanently throwing away some audio information in order to get a smaller file.  PCM WAV files are uncompressed so there is no loss of quality due to compression.  If you compare the audio spectrogram/sonogram of a CD track ripped as a 320 kbps MP3 to a WAV version of the same track, you'll see high frequency rolloff in the MP3 version.  If you have a recorder that can record PCM WAV, you might as well record in a higher quality format.

Yes, you can convert from WAV to MP3 or any other formats supported by the editing/conversion software you're using.

2.  A telephone pickup can record one sound source so the result will be mono, similar to how a "normal" audio mic records in mono.  Stereo audio mics have two microphones in them so that's how they are able to record in stereo.  So it follows that if you want to do a stereo induction recording, you'll need two induction pickups/mics.  If you want to convert a mono recording so it "sounds" stereo, there's a simple technique you can use in audio editing software but I've never tried it myself.
Turn a mono track into rich stereo
http://www.benvesco.com/blog/mixing/2008/turn-a-mono-track-into-rich-stereo/

3. Simple digital voice recorders usually have automatic record level controls because they are meant to record people talking (as their name implies).  It's important to get what someone said, whether they are whispering or shouting ;D.  But when recording music, having a consistent volume level detracts from the listening experience.  If the composer/performer wanted the louder parts softer and the quieter parts louder, they would have performed it that way  :D.  Automatic record level is a form of compression (it's compressing the volume level of the audio) and yep, this type of compression is also undesireable.

How to set proper record levels... your recorder should have a legible VU meter so you can see the sound levels of what you're recording.  You never want the record level to go past 0 dB because that means the sound is too loud for the recorder to record properly.  That results in "clipping"; it's called that because if you look at that waveform in an audio editor, the tops of the waveform envelope above 0 db are missing and are just flat lines like they had been cut with scissors.  If you listen to clipped audio, it'll sound distorted because of the missing audio.

So to avoid clipping the audio, you set the record level so the "average" sound level is well below 0 dB.  That's called leaving "headroom" in your recording so louder parts of the audio won't be clipped.  I usually go for what the recorder manufacturer suggests, which is -12 dB.

What's the "average" sound level?  You'll have to monitor the audio with the recorder's VU meter for at least a few minutes to see how loud (or soft) the audio is.  You should also monitor the audio while while recording with headphones or earbuds so if a very loud section of audio is played that results in distortion/clipping, you'll be able to notice it and know that it happened before you leave the Park. ;D  If you're recording a loop, you lower the record level to what you think/hope is a safe level for that section of audio and keep recording so you get a non-clipped version of that audio when it is played again.
 
Let me add just a small bit to pixelated´s statement:

Technically there is no way to make a mono file "real stereo", because you would have to "divide" the instrument groups likes strings / horns /guitars etc. to the seperate channels "left" and "right" - which is impossible, since you can´t accurately filter the instruments out of the mono mix and pan it left and right. The way described in pixelated link only makes a mono file "sound" more like stereo, but IMHO as soon as you listen with headphones it sounds quite a mess... I personally stick to the mono versions... ;)
 
I'd add just one more thing. For an induction recording the position of the mic on the speaker is really important. A fraction of an inch can mean the difference between  a poor and a great recording as does the quality of the sound from the speaker (rubbish in, rubbish out). Unfortunately there isn't a foolproof method to know you have hit the right spot although if you can listen with an earphone you can get a good idea of where the strongest signal is so take a few minutes to site the mic before recording (and watch it doesn't move - many use sticky pads or tape to hold the mic in place).
As Pixelated says, record in wav if possible (most recorders have a decent enough memory and memory cards are not that expensive). You can always convert to mp3 for your own use later if you need to while keeping the "master" in lossless. It's disappointing to find you have got everything right but you recorded it at a low bitrate.  :-[

I use the Zoom H2 which is a reasonable price and does the job (I believe their new version is even better).
 
The precision of the induction pickup location is dependent on the strength and overall shape of the magnetic field coming from the speaker's electromagnetic coil.  With some speakers, you just need the pickup to be somewhere near the speaker and you'll get a decent signal.  With others, it is as eyore says, the pickup must be on a certain "sweet spot" to get a good signal.  Generally, louder audio volumes result in larger & broader magnetic fields, which in turn create a bigger sweet spot.

Since you can't see magnetic fields, you need to roughly map them out with the induction pickup and recorder by listening to the signal through headphones while moving the pickup around on the surface of speaker and/or the space around the speaker.  If the sweet spot is large enough, the pickup does not even have to touch the speaker.  This comes in handy with speakers that are out of reach :D.
 
Thanks to all who replied. The information provided is a big help, and I especially appreciate pixelated taking the time to break it down in a way that's easy to understand.

I'll be doing some more research and will undoubtedly have more questions in the future. For now, here are a couple more:

1. When you guys make an induction recording, do you typically use one or two pickups? Most of the induction recordings shared here sound great to me, so I'm trying to get an understanding of the set up and different tools you all use. Also, are some pickups better than others? I bought mine from Radio Shack, but if there are better options, I would like to upgrade.

2. After looking around tonight, it looks like this hobby could get expensive (at least more than I had anticipated). Some of the recorders that appear to be in my price range are the Tascam DR-05, Tascam DR-40, and Roland R-05. From what I can gather, these are probably at the lower end of recorders. Does anyone know which, if any, will provide decent results (or recommend something better in the $200 and under price range)?

Thanks again everyone.
 
Yes, typically just one. However, there are cases in which using 2 pickups is desirable such as when a speaker enclosure has a tweeter and subwoofer separated by some distance (One pickup for each). When mixed together, the resulting sound will be much richer.

Take a look at the Sony PCM-M10 (my recorder of choice). Excellent pre-amp for boosting those low input levels without introducing too much noise.
 
772pilot said:
Take a look at the Sony PCM-M10 (my recorder of choice). Excellent pre-amp for boosting those low input levels without introducing too much noise.
Yep, the Sony line of linear PCM digital recorders are very, very good. 8)

I forgot to mention in the part about mapping the speaker's magnetic field is that you should move the induction pickup all around the speaker.  I.e., not just the front but the top, bottom, sides and back.  Just because the sound comes out the front doesn't necessarily mean that the best location will be in the front.  The front *is* usually a good spot but not always ;).
 
Recording with two pickups also means you may have to rewire the mics into a stereo plug - unless you have left and right mic sockets - onto a stereo jack plug as the standard telephone pickup plug is mono (it should record the same mono signal on both channels though due to the way the plug is made - if not a cheap mono to stereo adapter is handy). One plus regarding having an ear plug in to monitor is that CMs think you are listening to your mp3 player  ;)
Generally you get what you pay for.
That PCM-M10 looks really good with nice simple front controls but out of my budget alas.  :'(
May just put that on my next Christmas list!
I'm still very much a novice myself but the results have certainly been pleasing and far better than recording live. The Zoom H2 can be a little fiddly to use (the one I have needs the record button pressing twice and I keep forgetting)  :-\
 
Eyore mentioned something pretty important too. ALWAYS monitor your recordings as you make them (AKA listening with earplugs). That way you'll be able to determine the best pickup placement an addition to being able to hear if your recording is botched before you get home.
 
Silly as it sounds, some people (ahem, cough cough) forget that some recorders don't have a loudspeaker for playback so you need earphones to hear them although, in recent years, I  now take a decent iPod speaker (and a wire) with a line-in to play things back at the hotel in decent quality. What sounds great on the earplugs can sound a little different when played through a proper speaker (quiet recordings sound fine until then). As I said, still pretty well a novice so learning the hard way. I can always go back into the park and re-do them if I'm still there rather than at home  ;)
 
I'm back with some questions about headphones this time.

I'm thinking about trying to do some recordings using the ALD system. Does the quality of the headphones make a major difference in the quality of the recordings? If so, can someone make a recommendation or provide information on what specs, type, or brand I should be looking for?

Thanks.
 
Mara said:
I'm back with some questions about headphones this time.

I'm thinking about trying to do some recordings using the ALD system. Does the quality of the headphones make a major difference in the quality of the recordings? If so, can someone make a recommendation or provide information on what specs, type, or brand I should be looking for?
Strictly speaking, headphone quality does not matter at all, because the headphones are not part of the chain of input devices between the speaker and the end result of a digital audio file.  I.e., the recording quality is the same with good or bad headphones since they are only monitoring the recording.

But... the practical difference is that better headphones will let you hear the signal with better clarity and that in turn will let you get the best setup for your recording.  I.e., you can better optimize induction pickup location, decide which hum/whine/buzz you'd rather have in your recording, etc.  Usual bootlegger stuff ;D.
 
and do remember my earlier remarks. Things can sound quite good over headphones and turn out to be a poor recording (due to differences in volume etc between the recording and monitoring levels). As pixelated says, they help get the location, pick up unwanted sounds and such but you still need to make a comparison between what you hear and what the recording sounds like. I spent an hour recording a loop which sounded great through the phones but was very, very quiet when I played it at home  :( You need to learn how a good recording sounds so maybe better to stick to the same type of phones be they good or bad (mine are the cheapest I can get - naturally). Experience will teach you. Better to stick to the in-ear type (mine are over-ear that fit over my ears as I can't keep the buds in!!!!  :mad: as big phones will get you noticed. If your home audio sounds decent and clear on them, they should be fine.
 
Yeah, you should be careful about the difference between output volume and actual recording level. Having to increase amplitude of audio in a DAW introduces unwanted noise.
 
I ended up getting the Sony PCM-M10 and have been playing around with it for the last couple of days. Overall, I'm very happy with it, and it's been much easier to understand and learn to operate than I had feared. Thanks, 772pilot and pixelated, for making the recommendation.

Since I don't live in FL and can't visit the parks as often as I'd like, I don't really have as much time as I'd like to experiment with the different options, settings, and techniques to get the best results. I'm hoping you guys will be able to provide some direction on which settings are best to use so I can get better results more efficiently on my next trip.

Here are a few more questions:

1. Do you ever use the low cut filter function? If so, in what situations is it good to utilize?

2. Do you ever use the limiter function? If so, in what situations is it good to utilize?

3. Once a recording is in progress, is it best to leave the recording levels alone (provided they were properly set to begin with), or do I need to make adjustments during the recording?

4. Do you set your mic sensitivity to hi or low? Is one setting generally better for induction recordings? Is one setting generally better for live recordings?

5. I plan on doing induction recordings whenever possible. However, sometimes that may not be an option. If I do a live recording, do I need to invest in a wind screen to cut out wind and other unwanted noises? Also, if I do need to get a wind screen, should I use it for indoor recordings as well?

6. I remember reading a post about which recording resolutions members here use, but I don't remember which thread it was. If I recall, it may have been pixelated that mentioned recording in the highest quality setting is pointless because most of the speakers only play at a certain frequency (I'm sure the terminology is wrong). Which recording resolution do most of you use? One thing that concerns me about recording long loops on the highest quality setting is that the recorder automatically divides the file into two files when it exceeds 2GB. Can this later be joined back together seamlessly using software?

772pilot said:
Take a look at the Sony PCM-M10 (my recorder of choice). Excellent pre-amp for boosting those low input levels without introducing too much noise.

I've looked through the manual several times and can't find anything explaining how to boost low input levels with pre-amp. Is this something that's done automatically?

Thanks again for the great advice.
 
Only one point in there that I feel (reasonably) confident to answer. Adjusting the level while recording.
Do a test recording first if you can. If you adjust while it's recording it's going to show in the playback (portions loud/quiet etc). You set the recording level to the best level you can and, if it's way out, start again. There's a limit to how much you can try and fix something with software. Generally, sound levels are pretty well constant on loops and stuff. By the time you note that the levels are wrong on a live recording, it's usually too late as it's already been recorded. Certainly on my stuff anyway as it takes a few seconds to adjust the level. It is often a case of "fingers crossed".
 
Avoid the low-cut filter and limiter functions. The low-cut filter is just an equalizer that rolls away any low frequencies. It's meant to be used for microphone rumble, but since you're doing induction recordings it's not an issue. Limiter functions digitally compress any audio that exceeds the 0db maximum threshold. Makes for a very odd-sounding recording that doesn't have full dynamic range. Avoid this if you can by setting your levels properly.

As for a recording in progress - set your levels once when you're starting and leave them alone. If you change them what you'll end up with is an average change of amplitude in your recording that's nearly impossible to correct in post.

I tend to set my sensitivity to hi, but on the level wheel I never go past 4-5. I still get a good signal and I'm not introducing much preamp noise. I can't say too much about live recording scenarios, but the general rule of thumb is to have your average amplitude at around -12dB.

If you're recording live, a wind screen is a valuable asset to have. Maybe a soft-shell case too to reduce handling noise. Not sure about needing it indoors or not.

I record in 24-bit @ 48kHz. Typical CD quality is 16-bit @ 41kHz. There is almost no discernible difference in sound quality, however, working at a higher sampling rate and bit depth allows me the extra flexibility to work in post without worrying about digital clipping or signal degradation. Most DAWs are destructive editors and any digital signal processing WILL introduce and arbitrary amount of noise.  

The nice thing out the M10 is that you don't need to worry about fiddling with preamp settings - it's already in the signal chain. Just focus on getting appropriate levels for the expected audio, monitor with headphones and you're golden  ;D
 
I'm strongly considering getting into induction recording as well.  Already have my telephone pickup, have experimented just by recording with my iPhone, and thanks to this thread, am considering the Sony PCM-M10.  But now for a somewhat silly question, but one I must ask since I've never tried it. 

How do you attach the pickup to the speaker?

I suppose for recording anywhere but the front, the suction cup would suffice.  But surely the suction cup doesn't stick to the mesh.  I had a few ideas but they all seemed rather...elementary.  I've never taken much time to look at the different speaker types, so I'm not too sure what kind of mesh they use in front.  Thanks in advance!
 
Glue Dots - I use permanent dots, the temp ones don't hold for squat :)  They perms pull off easy, don't let the name fool you - been using them for years on my induction recordings.
 
and for all the stuff you take with you, there's not much you can do if the recorder decides to stop working using the mic in socket and binaural just won't work - along with anything else that plugs onto that socket  :mad:
 
eyore said:
and for all the stuff you take with you, there's not much you can do if the recorder decides to stop working using the mic in socket and binaural just won't work - along with anything else that plugs onto that socket  :mad:

One of my greatest fears!  Always nervous about that - at least in the parks we rent a car, I can go get a replacement for some items (mic/etc) - but on the Cruise, Im stuck ....  I needed a new Induction Mic once, so in Cozumel we went to what the locals called "The Mexican Walmart" but they didn't have anything like that :(
 
PensFan66 said:
eyore said:
and for all the stuff you take with you, there's not much you can do if the recorder decides to stop working using the mic in socket and binaural just won't work - along with anything else that plugs onto that socket  :mad:

One of my greatest fears!  Always nervous about that - at least in the parks we rent a car, I can go get a replacement for some items (mic/etc) - but on the Cruise, Im stuck ....  I needed a new Induction Mic once, so in Cozumel we went to what the locals called "The Mexican Walmart" but they didn't have anything like that :(


Naturally, I found the problem once I got home and gave it some thought. The Zoom generally uses a powered mic, I thinnk. It had reset itself with the menu "plug in" option set to "off" (the Zoom menu is not the easiest - or largest written - thing to delve into away from home (read "blind panic" there). Set it to "on" again and everything working fine  :mad: I presume that the battery running out cleared it's memory of things as i noticed it had also rest itself to recording in WAV rather than mp3s). Didn't have the manual with me and, to be honest, couldn't really find anything about unpowered mic in it either! That's the problem with getting old. Something you use once or twice a year means learning it all over again each time. I did take my minidisc recorder "just in case" and, what a surprise, couldn't remember how that worked either. Bah, humbug!
 
eyore said:
Naturally, I found the problem once I got home and gave it some thought. The Zoom generally uses a powered mic, I thinnk.
Condenser microphones need power but induction mics don't.  Did the Zoom not work for induction recordings?
 
yes it did although I only did a few short clips this year. It's a thing about the Zoom I simply forgot.  A powered mic just plugs into the mic socket. An unpowered mic needs to have the power from the Zoom itself via the "plug in" setting turning on in the menu (default is off).  Batteries last a decent time (over three years in my case) so, in that time, I'd forgotten all about it so, when I changed the battery for this year it reset to the defaults. At least the recordings are all in wav.
Do I need to say that I don't have any powered mics.........................
 
eyore said:
yes it did although I only did a few short clips this year. It's a thing about the Zoom I simply forgot.  A powered mic just plugs into the mic socket. An unpowered mic needs to have the power from the Zoom itself via the "plug in" setting turning on in the menu (default is off).  Batteries last a decent time (over three years in my case) so, in that time, I'd forgotten all about it so, when I changed the battery for this year it reset to the defaults. At least the recordings are all in wav.
Do I need to say that I don't have any powered mics.........................
Color me confused :p.  You're saying to use an unpowered mic (like an induction mic) on the Zoom, you have to enable 'plug-in power' on the Zoom?
 
Correct. There is a "plug in" option in the menu. If you use a standard non-powered mic (like binaural phones or a lapel mic, for instance) this option needs to be "on" or they don't work. The manual is very misleading.
The actual title (but there's not enough room on the screen to display it) is "plug in power".
The manual says:
When you connect a plug in power type external mic to the ext mic in jack of the H2, the H2 can supply power (2.5v DC) to the mic.
It then gives the procedure.

I do know that the Zoom has a phantom power installed.
It's not logical but needs to try and power he mic or they don't work.
Remember, what I know about mics would fit on the back of a postage stamp. They either work or they dont! Plug in off, mics don't work. Plug in on, mics work fine.
 
It has a selection in the menu to power a mic with 2.5v DC and that's built-in to it and normal for the H2 model. I have to admit that, if you didn't know it was there, you probably wouldn't know it existed.
When I first got mine my heart fell as it appeared to need a powered mic (which I didn't have). I read that bit I quoted in the manual and voila, the mic worked (I'd bought a Griffin lapel stereo mic). Didn't ask any more questions.
Looking on the web, it seems they don't really advertise this fact and many say it doesn't have it (until someone posts a picture of the manual - as I'm doing here) .  ;)
 

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I wasn't too sure about that myself but everyone talking about it calls it phantom power (including the site I got the pic from). The wiki says
"Phantom power, in the context of professional audio equipment, is a method for transmitting DC electric power through microphone cables to operate microphones that contain active electronic circuitry. It is best known as a convenient power source for condenser microphones"
That's what the plug in power selection does. How does this differ? This setting supplies 2.5v DC to power a microphone.
 
I've always understood it to be a 48v power source for microphones (e.g., condenser mics) that need it. More or less the same principle.
 
The much lower voltage from digital recorders is called plug-in power to distinguish it from the 48 V phantom power.  772pilot, do you remember if plug-in power had to be enabled on your Zoom H2 to make an induction microphone work?  That's the part I find wacky.
 
The induction mic works via the external mic-in regardless of the plugin power setting (off or on, it matters not one jot) and I have an induction recording from Rex's bottom in Toy Story Playland to prove it  ;D
 
pixelated said:
Color me confused :p.  You're saying to use an unpowered mic (like an induction mic) on the Zoom, you have to enable 'plug-in power' on the Zoom?
eyore said:
Correct. There is a "plug in" option in the menu. If you use a standard non-powered mic (like binaural phones or a lapel mic, for instance) this option needs to be "on" or they don't work. The manual is very misleading.
I think I see where the issue lays.  Small mics like lapel mics and ear-mounted binaural mics *are* electret condenser mics so they need power to work.
 
I'm guessing that all the older mics must take power from the equipment then and were the standard thing over many years. All my ancient mics work with the zoom - some dating back to the 60's.
I suppose logic dictates that there must be some power source involved or I could plug in a tin can on a piece of string and use it :D
"Unpowered" is really a mis-nomer then and we should be talking about "self-powered" mics and non-self powered mics" . ALL mics need power from somewhere, don't they.
Amazing the things one never thinks about in depth but just accept "it works".
 
Dynamic mics are self-powered because they have a wire coil attached to the diaphragm and that assembly is next to a permanent magnet.  So when the diaphragm is displaced by sound waves, that moves the coil in the presence of the magnetic field from the magnet and that induces an EMF (electromagnetic field) in the coil.  When the mic is connected to a circuit like a recorder input, the EMF becomes an electric current (because now the electrons have some place to go ;) ) and that current is converted into a voltage by resistance in the circuit.

The coil and diaphragm need to be a certain minimum size to generate a decent amount of current to get a good signal-to-noise ratio, so that's why dynamic mics are not small.  One exception is bass drum mics because there is plenty of volume to drive the mic :p.

If all or most of your older mics are electret condenser mics (you can usually tell by their smaller size compared to dynamic mics), then yes, they would need plug-in or phantom power to work.

I think you may need a bigger postage stamp now but that is A Good Thing. ;D
 
Having  dismantled many mics (usually to make use of the magnet after the diaphragm has failed) I'm familiar with the diaphragm types in which the movement generates the current.
I note they were invented (the electret one) in 1962 and were able to be mass produced. That accounts for why all my mics are of this type (ie read skinflint won't pay more than he has to). Other types back then were very, very expensive and way beyond a teenager's ability to buy.
It has, at least, made me read up on microphone types (many of which were invented long after I started making recordings on a tape recorder and so have passed me by).
 
I've thought about getting a boundary layer microphone to record shows when the speakers are too far away for even directional mics to reduce the amount of echoes.  Has anyone tried this?
 
Google working overtime  :mad:
Seriously though, anyone ever tried making one of these. Strikes me a small version would be very handy for those ou of reach speakers.
I did make one using a parabolic plastic fruit bowl and some wire to hold the mic many, many years ago and it did work (used for bird song recording) reasonably well.
 
Has anyone tried wireless recording?  I want to record in a few more public areas and it must look pretty suspicious at times.  If I could wrap the cord around the pickup and plug it into a transmitter and sit a few feet away, that would make things easier.

From what I've read, no one does this, so is it a quality issue, a cost issue, or something else?
 
eyore said:
The induction mic works via the external mic-in regardless of the plugin power setting (off or on, it matters not one jot) and I have an induction recording from Rex's bottom in Toy Story Playland to prove it  ;D

I worry about the sounds recorded from this particular location.  :-D
 
YOU worry. Think about someone standing in a kids area holding what appears to be a stethoscope to Rex's rear area. I doubt I've ever felt as self-concious in my life. Must rate alongside recording in a restroom for an hour  ;D (he knows who I mean)  ;)

Speaking of wireless recording (which I'd never heard of), maybe the price is a factor?
My Wireless Audio Rig: Wireless Mic & Recording Setup

What would be the benefits of a wireless mic over a hand help recorder?
 
eyore said:
What would be the benefits of a wireless mic over a hand help recorder?

The specific scenario I'm thinking about is overhead queue televisions.  I'd think running a cable from the television to a handheld device would look suspicious to most.  What have you done in these situations?
 
If the wireless transmitter is about the same size as the recorder, why not just leave the recorder behind instead of the transmitter.  Good quality transmitters are not small, as you can see in that video, and the whole wireless rig will cost you more than a new digital recorder.
 
That was more or less the way I was thinking. The mic still has to be placed near the source and radio mics can be bigger than the recorder (and more expensive).
Now, if it was one of those tiny bugs we see in the movies, that's been suggested for restroom loops but discovery may mean a visit to the local police station or worse  :D
 
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