Recorders

SeaCastle

Member
Hey friends,

Does anyone know any good recorders for the iPod? The recorder I bought from RadioShack was quite crappy, and there was no way I could get the amount I wanted to record using something like that, so I figured to use my 80GB iPod. Is there a decent recorder that records at a high bit rate/quality, and supports line-in for either telephone pickup/binaural recorder?

Thanks in advance.
 
For the iPod? or recorders in general?

I wasn't happy with the recordings on my iPod at all.  What I did was went with Podzilla, which is basdically LInux for the iPod.  They enabled the built in abililty of my generation iPod 4G, it was OK, however at the time, they didn't have any support ofr power management and batterylife was just horrible.

I have also thought about rockbox, with is a new firmware for many MP3 players, and has some support for the iPod as well.

I'm not sure if this is something you are considering.  I got my iPod for free, so if I bicked it, I wasn't going to be too upset.  I wouldn't expect much out of the iPod though, it wasn't built for recording, it was built for playing.

For my recording needs, I use a Sony RH-1 Minidsic recorder.  It's probably the ultimate Minidisc recorder in terms of quality and such.  I wouldn't say THE BEST Recorder, but it's up there.  There's also the Edirol recorders which are just as fantastic and a few others.  I haven't been keeping up though, there may be something new out there.  Sony has pretty much killed the Minidisc format, so I can't suggest going with them, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick up another, I just can't suggest someone else buy them not knowing how long blanks, etc will be available.  You can probably get them cheap though...
 
If you really want to make a good recording, you need something that lets you adjust the levels as you are recording.
 
OH yeah, I reread your message...

You're looking for a mic input if you want to use an induction pickup.  Line-in is unpowered and won't work with an induction pickup.  A mic input alone will also probably not provide the range necessary for many recordings...

Even though you didn't ask...

On portable recorders, the mic jack will probably only provide about 3v of power to your microphone.  This is adequate for most day to day use, however park recordings are another story.  Chances are, at any given recording level, there will be a sound that's too quiet or too loud to be accurately caught by a mic powered by a built in power source.  And I'm talking in like super laymans terms here.  You will be much better served by also purchasing or making a power supply for your microphone as well.  I have a 9V power supply between my recorder and my microphones that gives me the ability to record a much broader range of audio at any given recording level set on my recorder.

For example, EEA, I can set my recorder on 15/20 which means level 15 out of a maximum of 20 as far as recording levels go.  I plug my battery supply into my LINE-IN jack and them my microphones into the battery pack.  During EEA, I can capture the entire show without adjusting the levels on my recorder AND I capture everything from the faint forest sounds to the "Big Bang" without massive distortion.

Without the mic power supply, I would either choose a much lower setting so that I don't get massive distortion during the big bang, or during the show I would have to CONSTANTLY monitor the recording levels on my recorder and try to adjust it up when the audio is very faint and then down quickly enough if there is a loud noise, etc.  Many devices have what's called AGC (auto gain control), which tries to do this for you automagically.

Personally, I don't prefer this method as:
1.  I'm lazy, so I'd rather set it and forget it.
2.  Many times, background noise is also ampliified when setting/resetting levels which can make noise removal a chore.
3.  More room for errors.

A power supply as mentioned above would require that you have a line-in jack, IT DOES NOT WORK ON MIC IN.  The flip side is, a power supply DOES NOT work with an induction pickup, so, really you need both.

Mic-in normally has an amp tied to it, depending on the device it may or may not be a good one.  The amp can introduce some noise of it's own.  Line in DOES NOT use a amp, so using a power supply as mentioned above can take a noisey amp out of the mix as well.

It really all depends on the quality of recording that you want.  I used to use a camcorder for my initial recordings.  And I was very happy with the results, until I got my minidisc recorder.  Now I wouldn't think of it, camcorder recordings have AGC, all sorts of motor noise, and a general crappyness that doesn't sound good, at least compared to what I know is possible.
 
So after reading and re-reading the posts, I'm still slightly confused. When you mean between, does that mean that you have to buy a battery pack for the pickup, plug in the pick-up into the battery pack, and connect the battery recorder?

Also, are there any decent (yet inexpensive) recorders that support this? I don't plan on using this recorder a lot, as I can only make it out to the parks once every year and a half or so. By inexpensive, I mean preferably under $100, but still records somewhat well.
 
RECORDER --- BATTERY BOX --- MICROPHONE

Yes, it sits between the recorder and the microphones.  It powers the microphone, not the recorder itself.  Sometimes it confusing and what you're actually powering, but yes, you are feeding the microphones 9-10V of power, normally from a 9V battery, but you could go stealth and use smaller watch type batteries.  They can be made cheap, but you can buy a battery box if you wanted, usually in the range of $50-70.  Parts cost about $4 plus shipping, but you need to be able to solder.

Recorders are the tough part.  New, the Edirol and the RH-1 I think were in the $300-$400 range.  There were many minidisc recorders that were capable of recording, but Sony has a way of confusing things and also making things hard to do, so some recorder buy you couldn't get the audio off the discs unless you played them back through a soundcard.  Kindof a pain...  The Sony NH700 Minidisc recorder is something to look for, but still going for about $150 on eBay.  You might be able to get a used one.

The ZOOM H2 gets pretty good reviews, but again that's in the $150+ range.

I think Olympus makes something, but not sure on it's capabilities and price, C33 I think uses something like that.

iPods are tough, since some of the features are disabled either in firmware, or hardware, meaning you just can't do it.  The older iPods were actually more capable, if I recall correctly, plus support for some of the "hacks" takes time to come out and nobody wants to make a brick out of their shiney new iPod.
 
I remember seeing some Olympus recorders at the local Staples. I'll see how good they are.

I'll try to make my own, but how would I attach a 9V battery to a telephone pick-up?
 
Now, not my strong point this but, would a mic with a battery already in it work?
I have a couple of old mics (from a stereo cassette recorder I used to have) which required a battery (only 1 1/2 volts) to work (can't remember the technical name for them) but I'd have to look for them in the roof space (attic/loft).
I'm hoping to try out some recording next month at DLRP (hopefully remember to take the earphones for minidisc recorder this year as I forgot them last time and the volume bar isn't very reliable :-[ ).
Don't want to pack too much stuff (family holiday, after all and only for 4 days - wife already commenting on leaning into bushes while everyone sits round getting fed up waiting for me and getting suspicious of the number of discs/tapes mics etc getting put to one side for packing).
:-\
 
Maybe I went too close to laymans terms.

No you don't hook the battery directly up to the microphones.  There are a couple of capacitors and resistors to make sure you don't backfeed the power into the recorder (again in laymans terms).  The scematics are pretty easy to follow, and like I said, you're looking at about $4 in parts.

A 1.2V powered mic will not provide the same range that a 10V powered mic will generally speaking.  All my stereo recordings were made with the following equipment:

1.  (1) El Cheapo Radioshack In-Ear 'Phones Part# 33-1106 - Sale price $3.99
2.  (2) Panasonic WM-61A Microphone Cartidge 6MM Omni - price $1.65 each at digikey.com

Unsolder the "speakers" and solder on the microphone capsules.  Do a little handywork to make it look pretty, and you now have a binaural stereo microphone setup.

The battery box consists of (from Mouser Electronics):

1.  (2) Nichicon Radial Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitors -  50V 2.2uF 5x11 - price: $0.13 each
2.  (2) 1/4 watt Metal Film Resistors -  10Kohms 1% 50PPM  - price $0.12 each
3.  (1) Kycon Audio Connector - 3.5mm PCB Stereo Black - price $0.75 each
4.  (1) Kobiconn Audio Cord - 3.5mm Stereo PL to 3.5mm Stereo PL - price $2.07 each
5.  (1) PCB board - Only need a piece about 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch
6.  (1) 9V battery connector - available at radio shack, sorry no part number

Directions are fairly easy, I'll try to work on it... 

I have used a 1/2v powered mic for things like PotC and such and YES, it does work.  I don't think it gets you the same effect as the above mic, and definitely not stereo. 

I would say that the above will rival most of the binaural mics out there in the $100 or so range at places like Sound Professionals (hint, they use the same microphone capsules, check the stats!)  Yes, I'm sure they custom match the mic capsules, etc.  But, for less than $6 I'm more than happy with my results.

All my stuff will easily fit in a cargo shorts pocket.  The microphones are no bigger than normal over the ear neadphones.  My recorder is about the size of a pack of cards, and my battery box is about 1,5 times the size of a 9V battery (with the battery).  My shotgun mic is about a foot long, doesn't travel well (i.e. stealthy).

Add a simple induction pickup to the above and you're golden for a full day of recording.



 
Replacing the earphones with mics sounds a great idea.
To be honest, I have been using a small stereo lapel mic (really cheap and surprisingly effective) for live recordings (clip it on to the ride vehicle if you can get a front or back seat or that stuff like putty for sticking paper to walls - it's called Blu-Tak here - is handy) to prevent unwanted finger-rubbing noises and stray coughs - thin strips of rubber on the clip to prevent vibration noise). but, of course, it doesn't have the same separation as the earphones. I may try them.
All I need now is an extra few pairs of hands (one for the camcorder, one for the audio recorder and, of course, one pair to hang on the the safety bar) - ever noticed how camcorder users can wedge themselves into the seats for a "hands free" experience?
;D
 
What I do is run the cord down under my shirt and into a pocket that's holding my recorder.  Again, my recorder is about the size of a deck of cards, if you're recording into a camcorder or something like that, then you've got some size issues to contend with.
 
Wow, I have a lot more respect for you guys out there doing recordings for us. (Not that I didn't in the first place  ;D)

I'm still a little confused on where you plug the pickup into.
 
What pickup?

The induction pickup?  The induction pickup goes into the MIC IN plug on my recorder.

I have TWO 1/8" (3.5mm) inputs on my recorder.  One is MIC IN the other is LINE IN.  One accepts a powered source, the other not basically.  LINE IN DOES NOT provide power to whatever device is connected to it, power must be provided seperately as needed.  MIC IN I bleieve provides about 3V of power to the device.

I don't know much about the differences, only that there IS a difference. 

My home made mics record great when plugged into the MIC IN jack, but are easy to overload.  If I plug them inot the LINE IN jack, I'll get NOTHING.  I need to plug my battery box into the LINE IN jack and then my microphones into the battery box.  Then BINGO!  IT records liek a champ and is relatively hard to overload.

THe induction pickup requires the relatively low power provided by the MIC IN jack.  The battery box seems to overpower the pickup and it doesn't detect the necessary field disturbances.

BTW - I can only record from one source at a time, so LINE IN or MIC IN.
 
So the power pack goes into Line-In, and the induction pickup goes into MIC-iN, and in theory the power pack from LINE-IN should supply the induction pick-up's power?
 
As I mentioned above, you CAN'T use a battery box with an induction pickup.  It will not work.  The induction pickup ALWAYS gets plugged into the MIC IN jack on your recorder.

Also, I would refrain from calling it a power supply so as to not confuse it with an external power supply that could be used to power the recorder.  A battery box would power the microphones only.  A battery box has a 1/8" FEMALE connector and a 1/8" MALE connector.  The microphones get plugged into the FEMALE connector on the batter box and the male connector of the battery box get plugged into the LINE-IN jack on the recorder.  It sits between the mics and the recorder.  I think this is what's confusing the issue.

So, to use my ASCII art skills again:

Correct:

MICROPHONE -----> MIC-IN ON RECORDER
MICROPHONE -----> BATTERY BOX ------> LINE-IN ON RECORDER
INDUCTION PICKUP -----> MIC-IN ON RECORDER

Incorrect:

MICROPHONE -----> LINE-IN ON RECORDER
INDUCTION PICKUP -----> BATTERY BOX ------> LINE-IN ON RECORDER
INDUCTION PICKUP -----> LINE-IN ON RECORDER
BATTERY BOX -----> LINE-IN ON RECORDER  AND MICROPHONE -----> MIC-IN ON RECORDER
 
And I take it that the following would also be incorrect?

MICROPHONE................>BATTERY BOX.............>MIC-IN ON RECORDER

as it would probably overload the recorder circuits by providing too much power?

I should add that my total knowledge of wiring up mics was to achieve the opposite (ie reducing the power as the mics were the wrong resistance and everything was recording TOO LOUD even with the controls set an low as they would go and that was many years ago) by wiring in (trial and error) a couple of resistors.
Any schematics of the battery box available  for us "technically/electronically  challenged" types?
 
That is correct...  You don't want to put the battery box in the MIC IN jack.  I don't think that you'll blow anything, as you're really only powering the mics (the resistors prevent the 10V from feeding back into the recorder), but I wouldn't try it.

I'll dig out my schematics when I find them.

You could use a volume attenuator between the mics and mic-in jack for what you are describing.  It sounds though as if there was some problem with what the microhones were outputing.  There's a difference between line level and mic level inputs, one that I don't fully understand to be able to speak to.
 
And for the final
1.gif
question, what kind of microphone do you need for this to work? Could it work without a microphone?
 
SoundProfessionals sells microphones like many people use.  Something from their miniature binaural microphones section.  They are basically small (6mm in diameter) electret microphone capsules soldered to a wire with a 1/8" male stereo connector on the end.  Your recording device (through the MIC IN jack) will provide some power to those capsules so that they can record audio.  I make my own.

Without some sort of microphone, you're not going to be able to pick up any audio.  An induction pickup is a type of microphone, sortof, so if you're asking if you need an induction pickup AND a normal, microphone, the answer is NO.

Live audio, like a theater, or show, or ride is normally recorded on a normal microphone.  When using this, you will record what you hear, including the old guy in the back row with a hacking cough, and the baby in front screaming for momma!

Background Music Loops or attractions where a speaker is RIGHT THERE lend themselves better to recording with an induction pickup.  You need to be able to touch the speaker with the induction pickup in order to have any chance of recording usable audio from it. 
 
Quote:
including the old guy in the back row with a hacking cough, and the baby in front screaming for momma!

Ah, you have met us then ;D

Thanks for the clear way you have described everything. Probably won't have time to sort it for this year, but maybe next time.
One last question.
When you say that you need to be able to "touch the speaker", do you mean the plate or the actual bit behind the perforated plate (ie the bit that's inside and speaker cabinet with the black paper. central cone and the magnetic bit at the back - the "actual" speaker" - that description in layman's terms, of course).
I realise that it should be as near to the magnetic bit as possible but find it hard to visualise speakers in the park being that accessable unless vandalised or attacked with a screwsriver and wrench while nobody is watching.
I've had very little success recording at home from the TV speakers, Hi-Fi or even the PC (phone's ok though).
???
 
Thanks. I understand now.It picks up the magnetic changes SO the nearer to the magnet the better and, if you are lucky, the signal will be strong enough to be picked up CLOSE to it or from the cable but it's the luck of the draw and trial and error.
I can leave the tools and wrecking bar at home then ;D
 
kirky said:
SoundProfessionals sells microphones like many people use.  Something from their miniature binaural microphones section.  They are basically small (6mm in diameter) electret microphone capsules soldered to a wire with a 1/8" male stereo connector on the end.  Your recording device (through the MIC IN jack) will provide some power to those capsules so that they can record audio.  I make my own.

Without some sort of microphone, you're not going to be able to pick up any audio.  An induction pickup is a type of microphone, sortof, so if you're asking if you need an induction pickup AND a normal, microphone, the answer is NO.

Live audio, like a theater, or show, or ride is normally recorded on a normal microphone.  When using this, you will record what you hear, including the old guy in the back row with a hacking cough, and the baby in front screaming for momma!

Background Music Loops or attractions where a speaker is RIGHT THERE lend themselves better to recording with an induction pickup.  You need to be able to touch the speaker with the induction pickup in order to have any chance of recording usable audio from it. 

So you need a pickup AND a microphone you mentioned? Or can you just use induction pick-up with the battery pack to get an induction recording? I'm just trying to make some telephone pickup recordings (and maybe some binaural on the way  ;D.)
 
I think I'm getting this now ;D
That was a joke, right? (I hope)
Let's see if I've got this.
The induction mic will only work on mic-in and a battery pack won't work with an induction mic anyway?
 
 
eyore said:
I think I'm getting this now ;D
That was a joke, right? (I hope)
Let's see if I've got this.
The induction mic will only work on mic-in and a battery pack won't work with an induction mic anyway?
 

Unfortunately it was not.  :-\

I've had no prior knowledge about any of this prior to whenever I joined Mousebits. I understand that you can only plug the pickup into the MIC-IN but you need a separate battery pack to power the induction pickup so it comes out better.
 
No, you don't use a battery box for the induction mic.  Just plug it directly into the mic-in jack.

If you are going to make live recordings, you need a different mic.  You could just plug it directly into the mic-in jack, or, alternatively, use a battery box and plug the mic into the box, and the box into the line-in jack.
 
Correct, we don't want to be destroying Disney's speakers.  Usually, on the speaker grate is good, it gets you aligned correctly with the magnet mostly (if it's a traditional speaker) and will probably be the easiest/accessible spot, ALSO the most visible.

The speakers in the ground however are a bit tougher and as Horizons said, moving the induction pickup around the speaker enclosure and surrounding area will allow you to find the best spot.  Often the best location is a very small area, could be a band equadistant around the speaker, etc.  Moving even as little as 1/2 inch or so could make a huge difference.

I have not done any wire recording, BUT it would probably help get some of the music that comes from the speakers way up on poles, like around Boardwalk, or World Showcase, etc.

As we have mentioned many times, induction recording is a very time consuming process.  For an area music loop of maybe an hour in length, I'd plan on spending about 4 hours grabbing it.  You'll need to find a speaker that's accessible, and then listen to make sure it's pretty good quality.  Then attempt to record it and wait, and wait, and wait...  You're looking for a pause between songs.  That's the starting point, from there you record the whole thing until you hear the pause again and the same song starts.  That's your loop point.  You can stop and go home and hope you got the whole thing without any problems, or you can come back at another time and record it again.
 
Thanks very, very much for the help, and sorry for the questions.

Now all that remains is for me to find a good cheapo recorder.  ;D
 
Sorry Ozzietropics, the smiley face made me think it was a joke as it had been said that the induction mic is ONLY used with the mic-in socket and cannot be "boosted" with a battery pack.
The idea of an induction mic AND a stereo mic used together sounded a little unusual so, I though it was joke, sorry.
The battery pack is for the Line-in socket with a mic ONLY.
They are not interchangable and it's an either/or situation (either a boosted mic OR an induction mic - NOT both).
I'm in the same position as only having recorded using a small mono mic (on one of those voice recording cassette players they use in offices to take notes) or a lapel mic (and sometimes just ripping the audio from my camcorder videos) so all this is new to me too (but rather exciting).
I'm really appreciative that those experienced members have been so patient with us recording newbies.
Thanks guys.
 
Yes, if you want to hear it regardless if it's the induction mic or ordinary mic you are using.
My minidisc recorder has a bar that shows the recording level but it isn't very accurate so, if the recorder will allow it, it's best to listen to it while recording (or, at least, to set the level).
Once you have set it, you wouldn't need to monitor it any more, would you?
I forgot the headphones last year and ended up with several LOUD and distorted recordings and trying to compensate, several very quiet ones :-[.
I rather like the idea of replacing the headphone speakers with mics to make a binaural recording mic though.
The separation (same as between ears) does make a difference from what I have heard of those here.
I don't think I can do that in time for this year though :(
Gosh, that's induction mic, stereo mic, binaural headphone mic, headphones, recorder, discs and recorder to pack (and battery pack if you make one).
I reckon you can pick out a Mousebits member by the size of their backpacks ;D
 
Yes, I would also highly suggest listening with real headphones to what you are recording, or like said, to set the levels.  Honestly though, once you set a few attractions, you probably figure out that the levels are for the most part the same between attractions.  At least for the live recordings.

I also suggest the battery box when doing live recordings.  It will give you a much broader range or sound levels before you start distorting.  If you want a little challenge, try recording Dinosaur without a battery box using a binaural microphone.  Chances are you'll distort like crazy at the end during the intense (and VERY LOUD) dinosaur roar.  You may also pick up some wind noise they pump in for effect.  I've gotten around the distortion by using the battery box (I actually set my levels and don't touch them the entire attraction) but still working on a decent wind screen for my home made mics.  I think part of the problem is lack of some shock absorber around the capsule and then of course over the pickup.  I've got an idea though!

I don't even attempt a live recording anymore without a battery box.  Check out my Magic Monday v2 Consolidated Release torrent if you want to hear some of my stereo recordings.  Listen to them with headphones on as well.  Those were all done with my home made mic and home made battery box.

Eyore, don't forget some sort of extension device, some glue dots, and elastic bands (green preferrably).  I think my next set of modifications will be to colorize my induction pickups (WHITE and GREEN).

What model recorder are you using?  The minidisc lineup is confusing as hell, so tips to others on the model might be useful. 
 
I'd be curious to hear the quality of any recording you get.  That looks pretty sweet, and the price is nice!!!  I'm always looking for a spare device for recording.
 
kirky said:
I'd be curious to hear the quality of any recording you get.  That looks pretty sweet, and the price is nice!!!  I'm always looking for a spare device for recording.

It's odd...when I bought my telephone pickups I bought two of them because I thought I needed them. It turns out that the recorders only have one mono mic input, but this one has two, left and right, so it would save me the trouble of copying over the channels, in theory. ;D
 
If you have two induction pickups - which are mono  (or  mono mics) and you just want the 2 channel recording, Radio Shack should have a little thing that could make less work. It's a Y connector  mono to stereo adapter (I presume they will have them in the US and elsewhere).
It takes 2 mono sources and inputs each one to the two channels so you get stereo (which is the same as having a stereo mic but no rewiring etc required (Oh boy, just had a vision of riding with one mic taped behind each ear making a binaural recording). It won't make an induction recording stereo as they are mono anyway, I think (unless there are any speakers with two inside the box - which I doubt)
They sell a similar adapter for just mono to stereo (use only one mic or pickup) and that splits the signal equally between the two channels - of course, not stereo.
 
kirky said:
<Snip>

What model recorder are you using?  The minidisc lineup is confusing as hell, so tips to others on the model might be useful. 

I have a Sharp MD-MT280E(S)
(picture attached- hopefully)
It's really small 3 1/2" x 3" x 1" and probably does a lot that I don't know about (I'm very poor at actually reading through manuals).
In the UK, the discs are getting hard to find now though!
 

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Save a little cash, and the possibility of some unwanted static noise and forget about the mono to stereo Y cable thing.

For the most part, any induction recordings you will want to get are single speakers.  That means mono.  You can always copy the left channel to the right channel in post processing if you really insist on a stereo recording, however I'd save disk space and the trouble and just leave it mono.

There are only a few places where a stereo recording would really be necessary.  Places like Song of the Rainforest, Sounds Dangerous, maybe even the new Haunted Mansion.  I'm sure there are a few others.  Something like Dinosaur, well, you're not going to get to each of the speakers, some are actually shakers from what I understand, so a live recording is probably as good of a recording as you're going to get.  Especially since the on-board audio is already in circulation as source I believe.

Yeah, I haven't checked onminidisc here in a while either.  I should get a few boxes I think.  Maybe 20 or so, I usually don't like to delete what I record, but I think I might need to.  Who knows how long my RH-1 will last anyway.
 
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