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Author Topic: Bass distortion in induction recording  (Read 33562 times)

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pixelated

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2009, 01:21:33 PM »

This is a 20 sec. clip of a woofer playing the "Jumpin' Jellyfish" BGM.  I converted it to FLAC format straight from the original recording so it hasn't been processed at all.  The chord at the end are the deepest notes I've recorded so far (I can feel my desk vibrate when I play it ;)) and it sounds OK to me:
http://rapidshare.com/files/155589023/Jumpin__Jellyfish_woofer.flac.html

For this recording, the pickup was very close to the speaker but not touching it. 
Do you still have this clip? The link has expired.

I've re-uploaded it to MediaFire.  This link won't expire anytime soon:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ynzzjnezykn/Jumpin' Jellyfish woofer.flac
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CAScreaminDude

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2009, 10:25:08 PM »

Thanks. The bass is definitely present and not distorted, from what I can tell. Obviously, the higher pitches are somewhat muted, similar to the Pier (Boardwalk) induction of yours. Whatever method you used for that recording sure seemed to work. But, which speaker did you find near Jelly that allows for that close of a recording?

pixelated

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 10:36:04 AM »

Thanks. The bass is definitely present and not distorted, from what I can tell. Obviously, the higher pitches are somewhat muted, similar to the Pier (Boardwalk) induction of yours. Whatever method you used for that recording sure seemed to work. But, which speaker did you find near Jelly that allows for that close of a recording?


I used a five-foot extension to reach the woofer of one of the pole-mounted 3-way speakers near Jumpin'.  As for the recorded audio, you shouldn't hear a significant amount of treble tones coming from a woofer since it wasn't designed to play those tones.  The crossover circuitry in the speaker will route most of the treble tones to the midrange driver and the tweeter.
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CAScreaminDude

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 11:44:06 PM »

How long did you stand there with the five foot cable ? ;D Sounds like we should fashion a suction cup mic to throw up at the box.

eyore

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 12:45:08 AM »

How did you get it up there!!!!
Or was that a telescopic doo-dah that was 5 feet?
I know some here do carry things like radio aerials around with them to reach the speakers.
That's dedication ;D
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pixelated

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 09:07:41 AM »

How did you get it up there!!!!
Or was that a telescopic doo-dah that was 5 feet?
I know some here do carry things like radio aerials around with them to reach the speakers.
That's dedication ;D

You are correct, it's a 5 ft. telescoping rod.  The audio extension cable was 6 ft. long.

How long did you stand there with the five foot cable ? ;D Sounds like we should fashion a suction cup mic to throw up at the box.

I think I was there for only around 5-7 mins. because:
1) it's hard to keep the end of the rod steady and since that's where the induction pickup is, that makes the signal fade in and out and change tone
2) your arms get tired from trying to keep a 5 ft. long object steady and from just holding the thing in the air
3) it's not very stealthy

The bottom of the speaker is just over 11 ft. from the ground so the chances of a thrown/tossed sticky mic actually sticking to the speaker enclosure are are not good and perhaps more importantly, how do you make the mic un-stick itself on command once you're done recording?
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pixelated

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2011, 09:16:39 AM »

After 2 years and a simple Wikipedia search, I think I've answered my own question about why induction pickups seem to be sensitive to vibration.  I've highlighted the important sentence in red:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor
Quote
Air core inductor
The term air core coil describes an inductor that does not use a magnetic core made of a ferromagnetic material. The term refers to coils wound on plastic, ceramic, or other nonmagnetic forms, as well as those that actually have air inside the windings. Air core coils have lower inductance than ferromagnetic core coils, but are often used at high frequencies because they are free from energy losses called core losses that occur in ferromagnetic cores, which increase with frequency. A side effect that can occur in air core coils in which the winding is not rigidly supported on a form is 'microphony': mechanical vibration of the windings can cause variations in the inductance.
The telephone pickups that I've opened do have a mild steel core so they are not air core inductors but the actual wire coil itself is wound around a plastic bobbin, sometimes loosely.  The wire is not coated with something like lacquer or varnish to make the coil a single solid mass, so the windings can vibrate.  That causes a change in the inductance which in turn changes the induced current going into the recorder.

The same Wikipedia article says:
Quote
Core materials with a higher permeability than air increase the magnetic field and confine it closely to the inductor, thereby increasing the inductance.
Plain steel has a relative permeability of 100 and air has a relative permeability of 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)) so if I remove the mild steel core from a pickup, the pickup's sensitivity should drop.  And if I replace the steel core with a Permalloy core (relative permeability of about 8,000 to 100,000 depending on the alloy), the sensitivity should increase.

Something to try on a rainy day... ;D
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eyore

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2011, 12:21:23 PM »

Interesting.
I wonder if coating the winding with something like nail varnish would fix the basic vibration problem?
Or is that too simple?
I've been fairly lucky with the few induction recordings I have made (plus nothing to compare them to) but better results can't be bad regardless.
Do let us know if you have success replacing the core.  At least the things are cheap enough to have a few failures and any improvement on an already fairly successful method of recording would be great.
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pixelated

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Re: Bass distortion in induction recording
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2011, 07:20:47 AM »

Interesting.
I wonder if coating the winding with something like nail varnish would fix the basic vibration problem?
Or is that too simple?
That would probably only stabilize the outer windings.  If the entire coil could be thoroughly soaked, that might work.

Quote
I've been fairly lucky with the few induction recordings I have made (plus nothing to compare them to) but better results can't be bad regardless.
I've only really noticed the distortion on speakers that were being driven at high volumes, where you could easily feel the entire housing buzzing.

Quote
Do let us know if you have success replacing the core.  At least the things are cheap enough to have a few failures and any improvement on an already fairly successful method of recording would be great.
I haven't gotten an actual price for Permalloy or other similar high-mu alloys but what I've read say they are pretty expensive.  I've been told ferrite alloy cores are almost as good and significantly cheaper so I'm going to try those first.

If you're keen on designing your own induction pickup, give this a read:
"Magnetic Field Measurement" by Steven A. Macintyre
http://www.radio-astronomy.org/library/Magnetic%20Field%20Measurement.pdf

An induction pickup is just a specialized magnetometer after all ;).
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